DOG-EARED with Lisa Davis & the Health Power podcast.

DOG-EARED with Lisa Davis EP #6: BOOK: "Dog Medicine: How My Dog Saved Me From Myself." AUTHOR: Julie Barton

February 16, 2023 Naturally Savvy
DOG-EARED with Lisa Davis & the Health Power podcast.
DOG-EARED with Lisa Davis EP #6: BOOK: "Dog Medicine: How My Dog Saved Me From Myself." AUTHOR: Julie Barton
Show Notes Transcript

Lisa is joined by Julie Barton who talks about her New York Times Best Seller
Dog Medicine: How My Dog Saved Me From Myself
 
Julie Barton is a writer living in Northern California. She has an MFA in Writing from Vermont College of Fine Arts and has been published in several magazines and journals including Brain Child, Two Hawks Quarterly, Huffington Post, Louisiana Literature, The South Carolina Review. Dog Medicine is a memoir spanning one year in Julie’s life, from April 1996 to April 1997. During that year, when Julie was 22, she was diagnosed with major depression and was suicidal. Family, doctors and therapists intervened, but nothing helped until she adopted a small rust-colored puppy named Bunker. He somehow sensed her moods and was able to provide hope and comfort when nothing else could. But when Bunker was about eight months old, he received his own life-threatening diagnosis. He had saved Julie—now it was up to Julie to find the strength to save him. Dog Medicine is the story of the remarkable animal-human bond that saved both their lives.

Julie talks about  how her love of dogs began, her connection with nature,  her nervous breakdown, the sibling abuse she suffered, getting diagnosed with depression, getting Bunker, the healing power of dogs, forgiveness, binge eating and more.  Plus special questions by Sarah Hodgson, dog trainer, pet behavior consultant, media expert, and author of several dog-training books.  You can hear an interview with Sarah right here on DOG-EARED. 



1:08:48

Owner: Lisa Davis
SUMMARY KEYWORDS 
bunker , dog , book , felt , thought , people , emdr , read , writing , knew , brother , julie , mom , struggling , beautiful , write , depression , psilocybin , daughter , parents 


Lisa
0:00
Starting on January 11, "Health Power" we'll be posting every Tuesday instead of every Tuesday and Thursday, on Thursdays starting on the 12th. You're gonna get "DOG-EARED with Lisa Davis," they write books about dogs, I interview them. So if you're a dog lover, I hope you will check it out. Tell your friends, tell your family also tell them about health power. So again, health power every Tuesday "DOG-EARED with Lisa Davis" every Thursday, hope you'll tune in

Lisa 
0:37
Does your dog ignore you? When they clearly understand what you want them to do? I'm guessing this is a yes for most people, or maybe I just don't have the best well trained dogs. So every time I pick up my computer, and I say okay, boys, my lab immediately gets up, runs down to my studio where I record blue stays on the couch because he's comfortable. My pity. And he just gives me this look like this again. And I'm like, come on blue. Come on blue, come on blue. And then he stands at the top of the stairs, like and just and I'm blue I got so I've always now like I gotta get down on here a little early because blue and then finally I'm like blue. Please come in. And he reluctantly comes and he sits down. He's like, Ah, today I'm talking to Julie Barton, who wrote a book that like shook me to my core. It is called Dog medicine. How my dogs saved me from myself. It's a memoir. And I if you listen to health power, you've know I flippin love memoirs, now over here at dog eared. I love them even more here when it's about dogs and their effect on people. It's a New York Times bestseller. It is absolutely no surprise. Let me tell you a little bit about Julie before we bring her in. Julie Barton has an MFA in writing. I'm not at all surprised her writing was absolutely perfect. from Vermont College of Fine Arts has been published in several magazines and journals, including brainchild, two hawks quarterly The Huffington Post's Louisiana literature, and the South Carolina review, and was nominated for a Pushcart Prize. She lives in Northern California with her husband, two daughters and a small menagerie of pets. Julie Barton. Welcome to dog eared Lisa Davis. I'm so honored to have you. Oh, thank

Julie
2:24
you so much. I'm so honored to be here. Julie,

Lisa 
when did your love of dogs begin?

Julie 
2:31
Very young. We found our first dog in a car wash in the winter, and it was all frozen. And that was probably five or six. And, and she lived a long time she was beautiful midnight with her name. And I just think you know, in a family where you don't always feel 100% safe having unconditional love and attention that's not going to wane or go away is life changing. So it started very early.

Lisa 
3:06
You know, I really enjoyed reading about you and midnight and going out into the woods and your wonderful connection with somebody named Alice. Alice.

Julie 
3:16
Yeah, Alice is still there, I still go see her. She's lost a really big branch a couple of years ago, me nervous. But she she was a beech tree. She's probably by now she's over 150 years old. And she was in addition to animals. My she was like my grandmother. I didn't have a local grandmother. And she was really very much like, come sit with me. And I thought, you know, as a kid, I thought she had feelings. And she loved me a lot. She told me her name. I worried about her a lot when it was cold. And there was a scene in the book where I wrapped blankets around her trunk because I was you know worried about it and and I think that was one of the first times I realized because of the way people reacted to me trudging out in the snow and putting safety pinning baby blankets to the bottom of enormous tree. They reacted I was like, Oh, this isn't something people do. And so that was sort of one of the first seeds of self consciousness about the way that I saw the world. And so the you know, the one of the healing modalities that I use after losing bunker was returning to that knowing really returning to the communicating with all beings and trusting that that's that that's real. It's hard to do so easy to be like This is stupid. You know,

Lisa 
4:49
you know, I find so much joy and I mentioned this an interview recently solace in nature. And I think that and we'll get into it soon what you had to deal with at home I think to have that resilience and At no ability to go out and have a tree that feels like a grandmother is an incredibly important thing to a child, especially what you are going through. Yes. Your book touched on so many issues that I love to talk about. I love to talk about trauma, I love to talk about healing, I love to talk about mental illness, I let her talk about dogs. I love to talk about hope, and forgiveness, like it's all in there. It's just incredible. So I you know, with memoirs, it's always tricky, because I never want to give too much away. They don't want to be like, Oh my God, that time this blah, blah, and this huge thing. You're like, Well, gee, Lisa, you just ruined it. No, I've been doing this long enough. Julie, I know not to do that. Your story starts in New York City, April 16 1996. And you're in your kitchen, for two days off and on sleeping while the stove is on. And the waters boil down and there's smoke and you had a nervous breakdown. Take us back to that time in your life. 

Julie 
5:52
I moved to New York, probably for the wrong reasons right after college. And thought that, you know, I grew up in a pretty rural area, I wanted to be a big city kid. And I moved and didn't really understand. I didn't understand mental health, for sure. I don't think anybody in 96 Did I think it was just sort of like, why are you such a downer kind of thing. And so I really was struggling and didn't know what it meant, what was going on, I had this bad boyfriend who would, you know, come and go as he pleased and leave me devastated in a way that was I knew too intense. And then you know, it, it kind of, I kept trying and trying to continue with my life with my job, which paid me peanuts in New York City, and I could barely afford food. And, you know, I finally just was like, I can't this is not sustainable. And then you know, as it happens, you know, your body gives out your body is the one telling you what's going on. So my my mind was trying and trying to keep going and keep this, you know, I'm a college graduate now. And I'm doing this now. And I'm in the city now. And I just like I can't. And so I really did just clapped and, you know, kind of was in and out of consciousness for a while. Before I had enough. You know, were with audit to reach out to my mom. She came and picked me up. And even though she didn't know exactly what was going on, or what to say she knew what to do. And she got me in the car and said Go quit your job, you're coming home. And I think partly it was she knew enough because she was a high school teacher. And she saw teenagers in distress and knew when it was dangerous and knew that I was there. And she she took me home. And you know, I basically just sort of continued to collapse at home, but at least I was safe there that could check on me. And it got worse before it got better. And, you know, I think in the mid 90s, we didn't have the vocabulary that we do now for mental health and just thought, Why is she so negative? And why is she always sleeping? Why is you know, and I think it took a lot of research on their part to figure out like, Okay, this is something, and then they, you know, got me into a psychiatrist. And you know, this woman who I've met 45 minutes once in my life, never met her again, changed the whole trajectory of my life by diagnosing me with depression in that time. And I was like, obviously, I was like, No, but I knew I knew she was right. And it was kind of a relief to have a name for it. And to know that this was not, I'm not the only person out here who's struggling like this, because it's so isolating, and you feel so disconnected from everyone and everything that it was nice to know that okay, well, maybe this is not because there's something terribly wrong with me.

Lisa 
9:23
During that time. You were full of negative self talk, but it was it was just so automatic. Oh, yeah. And it stems from the abuse you received, which we'll get into from your brother, that those voices were just always there. And it wasn't even something that you were aware of until later on. Talk to us a little bit about about those voices.

Julie 
9:45
It's a really very difficult thing to notice when it's something you've just always done. You know, the negative self talk has probably been the hardest nut for me to crack, you know, as an adult, but as a, as a young person, it was in such high gear that every single thing I did, even if it was good, my brain would twist it to was because you concede it? And it's because you're this that, you know, would, it would, it was just this automatic thing and it, you know, I constantly thought that people were looking at me with disdain and disgust. And if that if I ever got a sign that maybe somebody wasn't, I was so desperate for that, that I would sort of lose myself in it. And, you know, it was, it was constant. And I also just didn't know that that was what I was doing. And I didn't know also, that everybody else didn't do that, that everybody else lived this life of feeling utterly. You know, deflated by everything. You know, the simplest thing, simplest thing could send me into a tailspin. And I would just have to try to hang on by my fingernails. And, you know, I didn't know I was doing it. I didn't know that. That wasn't how everybody was. And, you know, it took me really sinking and sinking and sinking, to even start to notice or have the I don't even know if it's like bravery or, or insight to look in and notice, like, okay, yeah, I guess I am doing that. Like, that's probably not great. You know, but, um, it, you know, it's, it's when you when you come up, and you've just heard you are pretty worthless, and nobody likes you. And, you know, from even, you know, just one person in your household. I was not hearing that from my parents. You know, I was only hearing it from my brother. But unfortunately, my brother was the one I was with most of the time. And I just didn't know it. I had internalized it.

Lisa 
12:09
This really got me it. So heartbreaking quote, many older brothers are mean and unhappy. I didn't think it was out of the ordinary that mine called me names. Bitch, whore, loser, idiot, ugly, weirdo. fuckface. And he hit me hard. He spit in my face. He pushed me down. He stepped on me. He pulled my hair. He chased me with knives. I just so I was I literally want to find him and I wanted to murder. Like, I'm so angry. I was like, what that like, and then I'm like, What the hell's wrong with your parents? I'm assuming I'm not alone in this. And it's interesting because Sarah Hodgson and I mentioned this to Julie before the show who I had on if you haven't heard her, go listen to her. She's fabulous here on dog eared and many other places. She loves Julie's book. And she said she could ask a question. And this relates. So Sara says, also, there were times in your book when I felt so angry at your mom, your family, your brother, then through your forgiveness, I felt like gathering, gathering them all in my arms in singing sweet him until their inner child felt safe, understood and calm. And I'm just thinking, No, I just want to know your parents. I do want to sit them down have a larbert Your brother. So she has two questions, which we're going to get to later. I do want to say it's different how people come to it, right? Like you have this forgiveness, where I have this venom. And I realize it's not my experience, and the venom just eats us alive, right? But just talk to us about what it was like to share this was a cathartic and in what it was like not to like just lash out and as a grown up, just run them over with your car. Yeah, don't tell me not tell me where your brother lives?

Julie 
14:02
Yeah, no. Well, here's the thing is that, you know, we all in families, right? We all have a defined role. And mine was never, it was never, like, that's not true. I was gonna say it's, it was never rage, and it was never, it was rage, but it really only directed at my mother. Because in my family, you know, if I were rageful at my dad, and my brother, you know, there was a lot of sort of, like, inherent misogyny in my family, but I think it's just part of the times, but um, you know, I, in the process of writing the book, you know, obviously, I had to do a lot of work, and I went home one summer, and I said to both my parents, like, Where were you? What the hell, you know, and you tell them how bad it was? Yeah, yeah. And they knew some of that, I mean, my dad was there the time that my brother knocked me unconscious, and, you know, I had like, to get go to the hospital and get stitches in my head. And, you know, he saw that. But, you know, the way that he dealt with it was a lot of screaming and, and yelling at him, which to me scared me more, because I was like, he's just gonna be more mad at me and beat me or the next time and try to hide it from my parents, which he was very, you know, adept at. So, um, you know, the, the conversation with my parents, really, I just said, you know, what, what happened? Where were you? And they honestly, just didn't have the perspective I did. They didn't know what was going on. My dad was gone, because he was working nonstop. And my mom, you know, literally hid under the bed. I think I've read that in the book that, you know, she's she's saw somewhere on a TV show about sibling rivalry that kids do it for their parents attention. And so if you withdraw the thing they're trying to get, then they won't try to get it and they won't fight and such flawed logic, because obviously, what that did was leave me to the wolves.

Lisa
16:22
I mean, this was like, out and out. Sibling abuse.

Julie 
16:24
Yeah, well, and I always say that I think sibling violence is the last sort of sanction form of domestic violence. Because, you know, kids, people are like, Oh, kids hate each other. And I always say that, that sibling violence is the last sanction form of domestic violence, because kids will hit each other. And I have two kids. And there was maybe one or two times where they lashed out of each other. But I'll tell you what, I stopped it right there. And I said, Absolutely not. Did we ever, ever lay hands on each other? We use our words, and, you know, that, that I think most families do now, but I it, you know, not all, not all, I think, in my family, there was an underlying anger and violence and almost like fear that I know, my brother and I felt, and I know, he fed on but another part of it was that when I was writing it, I had to think about him as a person outside of me, and what was going on with him when he was a child that made it so that he was so furious and angry, and, and scared and insecure? And, you know, there are answers for that, that I that I know, you know, in terms of just his not feeling good enough. And him feeling like where's my dad? He's never home. Right. So that was healing for me to try to once I sort of got through the, as I said, once I got through the anger, but you know, what's interesting is, it is very hard for me to get angry at my brother in His presence. Maybe that's just an abuse or abuse thing. I can do it when I'm not there. But when I am with him, it's, I'm, I revert back to I want to be his pal. Which is why I live very far away from where I grew up. And, you know, I just I just minimize it. Because, you know, there's a there's a role there that I I still don't really know how to not go into, although I'm getting better. But yeah, it was, it was very challenging. And then also, I think, for me, you know, I, I'm still working kind of tirelessly, I'm trying to traumatize my brain. And, and I'm having success in need some new modalities that are really interesting. And so Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. New EMDR.

Lisa
19:04
Which is changed. Nice. Yes. heard good things about that. Yeah. So you


Julie 
19:08
know, it's, I don't know, I figure this is sort of my job is to heal, and to not pass this on to my kids. And to, you know, help them feel safe in the world where I wasn't. Did

Lisa 
19:24
your brother read the book? And if yes, what was his reaction?

Julie 
19:29
He did read the book. And it took him a while I sent it to him, and he didn't read it. And then I sent him a hard copy of it, and I didn't hear anything for several months. And then out of the blue, he posted on social media, a photo of the cover, I think it was and he said, I just finished my sister's book. I'm so proud of her. It's amazing, except it made me cry and I'm sitting in the middle of the airport and And, you know, to me, I was I remember, I was sitting at my desk, and I saw it. And I pushed back from the desk and put both my arms up there. And I was like, Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Because to me that felt, you know, he has apologized for our wife and said, You know, I know, I wasn't a very good brother. And I, I kind of thought, like, I kind of thought like, I was waiting for that, that, you know, when that came, it was really hollow. I was like, Okay, that didn't do what I thought it was going to do

Lisa
20:35
that that was it. My head's about to explode. I wasn't a very good brother.

Julie 
20:40
He, we were at a bar, you know, it was very typical. I mean, and I don't think he I don't know. I don't know how he remembers it. Um, you know, everybody remembers things differently. I mean, he remembered all the scenes that I wrote about. But I think from his perspective, he was tortured. And I was the closest whipping post, right? And so he wasn't thinking about I don't honestly, I don't know what he was thinking. But but you know, when he read that, read the book, and he posted this lovely thing before the book even came out. My thought was, there are many ways to atone for behavior. And this, to me, was a really beautiful one, because he knew how much it meant to me to have this book out in the world. And he could have said, this makes me look bad. And he didn't, he never said that. He, we don't talk about it. And you know, when I was there recently, I was talking to other people about the book, and he was in in the room. And that was a little awkward. But he's never tried to stop me. He's never tried to, you know, say anything about it, which to me is, that's very honorable. And that tells me that he he's willing to, to really sort of take the take the hit, right, for all the take, take the truth and not refute it. And let me have my time to tell my story.

Lisa 
22:24
Yeah, I think that's so important. I'm a believer that traumatic events can lead to things like depression, I think trauma can cause mental illness. And I wonder, have you ever wondered if you would have had this depression if you didn't have all this trauma? It? Well, I'll

Julie 
22:40
tell you, I think about it all the time. What kind of person I would have done if I had grown up with a different sibling, or even different parents. I don't think I would have had this depression. I don't think I would have had the struggle. I don't think I would have had this persistent negative self talk. I mean, maybe a little bit, but

Lisa
22:55
that's your brother. His that's his voice. Yeah. And you mentioned earlier that, that the rage you had against your mother, you had rage against yourself? Because he planted at the 100%

Julie
23:04
Yeah, I mean, it was it was in every direction radiating, except for my dog

Lisa 
23:10
people, or isn't this a dog on the wrong? Well, we're both on the same platform road, this is dog, we're gonna get to the amazing dog and farm as

Julie 
23:19
well. And you know, even before bunker, you know, it was like, you know, when I was a kid, I knew the dog didn't hate me. And I knew the dog didn't think I was stupid, and the dog acted like, it really was happy to see me and like me. And that was like, you know, I'm at the bottom of the well, and that was the thinnest rope. But I was like, that's a rope. I'm going to hold on to it. And so that really saved me as a kid, you know, to have animals and these other sentient beings in my house who didn't think I was annoying or worthless or stupid or, or ignored me or, you know, neglected me or were frustrated by me. Right? So that was when I was in my deepest depression and thinking like, you know, nothing ever is going to help me. The thought of getting a dog really changed it, because I was able to think well, that I genuinely know will feel good. Like, nothing feels good. Right now. Nothing, like waking up doesn't feel good. You know, anything being outside, even sleeping was nothing felt good. Nothing felt even remotely, okay. And so I thought, well, I have a dog. Maybe, if it's just me and him. It'll start to feel like maybe I have the strength. And, you know, there we go again to my mom, my mom's had it. She was like, Okay, let's do this, like she is a doer, she will, she will go and do this with you or for you. And so we she was like, let's go, we're gonna go get a dog today. And so you know that that absolutely saved my life.

Lisa
25:13
It did and bunker found you i love how you write about that. And he licked her nose and you're like, Yep, here he is. He's like here are you waiting for? Yeah. You know, I also love in the book, your writing style is so incredible. And you talk about how on the same day that you were, or that few couple days you're having that nervous breakdown is when when you look at the breeders journals and stuff is when bunker was born, and just the way you go back and forth, and him being helpless and you being helpless and eating your mom and him meeting his mom and being a newborn. And it was just beautiful. I mean, the way that you wrote this book was so incredibly eloquent. And just every word was perfect. I mean, you were a really gifted writer.

Julie 
25:57
Thank you. Thank you. Well, you know, it's, it was amazing. And it's, you know, it made me believe in spirit and in the universe, having our back because I didn't notice or know any of those dates until I started writing the book. And I was like, you know, let me just go back and look like, that's what was the day I called my mom. Okay, what was it? And I was like, Oh, my God, that's bonkers birthday. Oh, my God, you know? And then oh, yeah, it all kind of started to fall into place that, you know, that was our trajectory. And it you know, that that is one of those moments where I'm just like, Yeah, you know, this was he is mice, my soul twin, my spirit twin, whatever you want it to be. And it's my turn in this lifetime to only have him for 11 years. And

Lisa
26:48
it's not enough. It's not enough

Julie
26:49
at all. And you know, and it's sad too, because I've got so many I have three dogs now and I I kind of think I keep getting them because I keep thinking like maybe it'll be like, and they're beautiful and amazing. But you know

Lisa 
27:06
I know what you mean. I got my bunker here. I got my Mr. Baby Blue. My pity I look and I every night we're cuddling. And I think I don't understand how am I gonna go on like when he's not here. But we have to right? We've all had that extra special soulmate dog. And I love to how like, I heard you in an interview talking about how you know your husband knew that. Your dog was your soulmate going into Yes. My poor husband. You know, we've been together 25 years, we just got blue seven, seven years ago. So you know, he didn't realize he was marrying somebody with a dog.

Julie 
27:38
So, yeah, it's like you step aside for a while, because we got ya gotta Yeah, I mean that that was definitely part of the deal. And, and it was beautiful, because he really loved and respected that relationship. And they also had their own their own connection. But he was, you know, first and foremost in my mind and all things with bunker.

Lisa 
28:00
It was so hard for and again, I don't want to give too much away, but you have depression, right, which is a constant struggle. And bunker was immensely helpful. And then bunker had some physical issues that were pretty flippin serious. And I'm reading this book going, Are you freaking kidding me? If there's a God, like, what are you doing to this poor, beautiful woman and her daughter? Like how much like how much can one person take? So this is up to you how much you want to share? Because again, I want people to get the book. You have to get this book again. Dog medicine, how my dog saved me for myself. We're not anywhere near done. I just wanted to put the title out there. Yeah, because I'm thinking to myself, this is this is almost like a movie. Like, it's just unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. So heart wrenching.

Julie 
28:44
Yeah. And as you're living it, you're like this, what the hell? This? This is terrible. This is absolutely terrible. Yeah, I mean, it it. At the time, I was in, you know, I was recovering. And I was doing better. And I had sort of, you know, I'd found a new city, and I'd read launched myself. And, you know, when I got this devastating news about bunker and his health, and I thought, Well, I mean, it was very clear to me, like if he dies, I'm not gonna stay, which is scary, you know, for those of us who have our, our soul dogs, you know, something could happen to them, but and I was not at the point in my life where I thought I would survive losing him. Right. And so it was all or nothing, you know, so it at the time, it shook me, but it was also very clear. You know, I wasn't, I wasn't going to be here without him. And I wasn't going to be cheated out of that lifetime because he was only seven or eight months old when he had that diagnosis. And so, you know, and what was beautiful about it was this new community that I had landed in have rallied around me in a way I had never experienced before. I mean, it still gives me chills, like they had a fundraiser at our house. You know, we were all in our early 20s. And, you know, they bought a keg and put a picture of bunker on it, and all my friends came over and put money in a basket and I, I just remember feeling like, what, why is why are people based on nice? And what did i What did I, you know, what did I of course, I'm sure my mind was like, well, they just like, bunker, they don't really care about you. But you know, it was very much that these people cared around me. And that was new and beautiful and hard. And but you know it, you know, in the book, the stakes seem high because they were for me, it was oh, yeah, I was not going to go on without him. If he if something happened to him, it was just not gonna was not gonna work. And then, and then, you know, when he did pass away, you know, I was pregnant with my second child. I was seven months pregnant. And, and so I'm working on the next book, which is how do I live without him? How do you live with that? And it's, oh,

Lisa 
31:12
I need Yeah. Or someday? Yeah. And

Julie
31:15
it's a really hard one to write. It's really hard. Right. But you know, it's really, it's, it's continuing with the healing that he started that he was the catalyst of. It's really

Lisa
31:27
amazing. I'm gonna go back to Sarah Hodgson for a moment to her questions. This one isn't so much a question. This is just cute. She says, I love to learn your dog was in your wedding. My dog whoopsie was in mind to the name whoopsie. I so want to rename one of my dogs whoopsie. This is and you mentioned your family a moment ago. So she asks, How did bunker mature and tolerate your girls as your family expanded? Can you talk a little bit of the dogs you've loved since bunker? And did you ever long for another retriever? Oh, and then I have another question after that. Yeah, she does. Right students great questions. I just saw off the top of my head. I'm all emotion. I'm all emotion. I'm like, damn, but that's just how I that's how I do.

Julie 
32:12
Yeah, I get it. Same the same way. Um, you know, bunker was it was funny when when my first daughter was born. He he didn't come downstairs for like a day. He stayed upstairs. And, you know, he would come out to go eat and go to the bathroom. But like he really sort of retreated. And that was hard, because I thought he you know, was he upset, but then he very quickly was like, Oh, this is my baby. You know, and he would literally use him as like a little bed for her. And I would I would lie her on him. And he would just lay there. And he was he was very, he was very verbal. He would talk a lot he would howl. And you know, she she got used to that. And they would when she would cry you would hell and it was it was very sweet.

Lisa 
33:09
That is so sweet. Yeah, yeah. And

Julie 
33:11
then, you know, I have every trooper and I have my first solo golden retriever since bunker. And I'll tell you, I knew that she was my dog when. So it was a friend of mine who bred her dog. And she was supposed to have five puppies. And the mom gave birth to five. And they were all sort of white Golden Retrievers. And then the mom was still laboring, and they they were like what's going on and then she gave birth to a six that was red. Because bunkers and, and then the mom took, took my current dog, his name is Sonny took her out to the yard to try to bury her. And my friend was like, puppies that, you know, not dead. We're gonna bring it back in the mom. I think the instinct was like, you know, this is I don't know, for whatever reason wanting to leave that one out. And so she brought her back in and the mom was fine with her. But I knew the minute my friend told me about this one unexpected red golden that people wanted to toss out or that the mom wanted to toss out. I was like, That's my dog. She's here now and she's amazing. She's like a world class Cutler and I just I do really love that you love her? Yeah.

Lisa 
34:37
That's awesome. Now the other question that Sarah Hodgson again. She's amazing that she asked was, what age did you share your emotional truth with your daughters? I assume they have read the book and how do you feel they have grown from your processing the scars of your past?

Julie 
34:54
Yeah. Well, you know that one was interesting because my older daughter she Tonight, while she's almost 19, she's in college. And she wanted to read the book when she was probably 15. And she started and she was like, I don't think I don't think I can read this yet. And so I was like 100% respect that. You can decide whenever you want to read that. And I think she finally read it when she was 17 or 18. And, you know, she, she's in it, because she was born in the end. And she has an amazing line at the end of the book after bunker died. The first thing she's probably the first thing she said to us when we said he'd gone when she said, Well, he was going to protect me from the monsters. And I would that I don't say same girl. That the the answer was me. You know, I, I'm going to do that for you now because I, I know how now. And and that's and I think also my forthrightness with my mental health, and also my real sensitivity to daughters and girls growing up and knowing probably to a fault that they're worried about things, you know, sometimes I think they're upset about something or worried about something, and they aren't at all. But, you know, I think it's, I know with, you know, with my older daughter who has read the book, it really deeply connected us and she's proud, you know, she's proud of the fact that her mom did this thing. And that feels good. And then my younger daughter hasn't read it yet. She has told me she's 15. And she said, I'm scared to read it. And I said, you don't have to read it until, you know, ever you not great ever, but until you feel like you're ready. And you know, it'll make you proud dad.

Lisa 
36:57
I love I love your husband is amazing.

Julie 
37:01
I know he's a keeper. So yeah, it's honestly, having struggled with my own mental health issues and own traumas has actually I think made me a really good parent. Because I'm not afraid to say, you know, that must really hurt, or are you okay? Or, you know, how are you feeling about this, or even just notice that something's off and not be scared of it? I think a lot of times. I know, in my family, it was always sort of like, if you smiled, people would my you know, people go, okay, she's fine. But that's not always the case. These kids are smart, they know how to put on a smile to try to fool you when they're really suffering. And so, you know, that radar that I think somebody who is just in tune with it, you don't have to have struggled with any kind of mental illness or depression or any anything. But, you know, that I think really makes a difference as a parent of particularly, girls and teenagers. And you know, boys too, obviously, but you know, that's just been my experience with two daughters.

Lisa
38:12
Oh, yeah. And how do you manage your depression now? And especially I would, you know, after bunker died? I mean, I believe you wrote in the book, did you write about that in the book?

Julie 
38:23
Yeah, I mean, I think I think I left it pretty open ended, sort of, like, I didn't know how I was going to be, but you know, but he taught me so much. I mean, he also, you know, he taught me that I was going to be okay. I think that, you know, that is one of the things that animals help us do is see more deeply and kindly into ourselves, you know, that, like, I have the capacity to love really deeply I have the capacity to care, that, you know, I am strong, and I can handle things like a devastating diagnosis and take care of it. And, you know, those kinds of things. And also, I had grown up a lot, but, you know, to answer the question about the depression, you know, it's, it's real, will be and has been sort of a lifelong battle. It's gotten better as I've gotten older. But, you know, I think that's really probably only because I still do the work. I still, yes, yes. I still seek out healing and connection and try to really be mindful of how I'm doing and how I'm feeling and noticing without judgment, how, you know, my heart feels and my you know, so, I think, I don't know I think for me, it's it's a lifelong thing. And like I said earlier, you know, EMDR changed my brain. i There's no question that it changed it. And, you know, it's kind of silly, but Prince Harry wrote about EMDR and psilocybin and those kinds of treatments for his PTSD as sort of lifting the veil. And that's exactly what it felt like for me with EMDR. And, you know, I just what I did was reprocessed some of those enormously traumatic events, including the one that we discussed earlier, where, you know, I was knocked unconscious hit that hit a wall, and my brother pushed me and reprocessing that one, and, and because I think, you know, deep down, I still kind of thought it was my fault, or I had done something wrong, or I was just being a pest. And really re going back into the brain, there's all this, they don't really understand how it works yet, but going back into the brain and understanding that, you know, there is some sort of fight or flight switch that is impossible to turn off unless you go back to the source of where that was, and you live your life from that. Fight, flight, flee whatever it is, you know, all those. And, and I had been, even though I've been doing so much work, and so that has really helped me. You know, I don't think that I'll ever I don't know. I mean, I'm still on medication. I don't, I don't know that I'll ever go off of it.

Lisa 
41:28
I was thinking about the fight the fight or flight. One of the hardest things to read in the book, other than that paragraph or the beginning about how your brother abused you. And it's just so heart wrenching is that time you were in your room, and he locked the door, and he's beating at the door and the door is vibrating? You're sitting on your bed, you're like a little girl curled up against the wall, and he frickin broke the door down? And I'm thinking, how do you move past always looking over your shoulder? Because I would think that would instill such a sense of having fear all the time.

Julie 
42:05
Yeah, absolutely. And I'll tell you the time I noticed that that was in my, that was instilled in me was when I was in college, and I was talking to a guy. And he went, he had like bangs, like, you know, long bangs, and he went to put pull them away from his face. And I flinched, because I thought he was gonna hit me, in my body, like, I didn't actually think he was going to hit me, like in my mind, but my body flinched. And I was like, what was that, and I knew that that was what my body was doing. But, you know, I did have that. And then it also, you know, translates into a really warped sense of love and relationship, you know, that somebody you know, that's where you'd run into somebody treating you like garbage and you thinking, either that it's your fault, or that you're not good enough, or, you know, doing everything you can to maintain that terrible relationship, because you think this is just sort of, you're so worthless that you need something,

Lisa 
43:16
I think, yeah, or finding something good, like you did, and then having an incident of self sabotage, which I want people to read the book. Right. But I related to that so much, because I have a passive sex and love addiction. I totally related to that.

Julie 
43:33
Well, and you know, it's, it's interesting, because I think that's where, you know, trauma and addiction are so intertwined. And I, you know, my addiction surfaced with food. And so I would, you know, I remember, as a little kid, you know, there was the dogs helping me and there was also sweets, and so I was a binge eater, I never was bulimia or anything, but I was a binge eater for 40 years to 45. And the EMDR has, has changed that for the first time I don't reach for food the way that I have automatically since I was like, nine years old. And so I think there's, you know, there's so much link there between the ways that we self soothe, right, there's, the way that we cope is by you know, we know these, that we have this toolkit of this is how we're going to help ourselves feel better. And you know what, good for us because this is how we, you know, this is how we survived and, you know, my one of my first sort of eating coach people was like, you know, young you was very resourceful and smart in that this was how she soothe herself. She had to find something. And so, you have to absolutely so same with you, you know, you have to find this is this thing that like this was made you feel worthy and good and so damn strange, you're going to use it. And so it's it's really interesting to make all those connections and then also to just try so hard to be, you know, easy on yourself in ways the ways you live.

Lisa 
45:22
Well, I just hope you're not see, here's the thing, like, I would hate to think you're beating yourself up for like binging or self sabotaging or any of the things that you've done to survive, because you had to cope. Right, like you're saying, Yeah, I'm curious, you didn't share that about the binging in the book? What was the thought process?

Julie 
45:41
Well, you know, I think it's really interesting that I didn't. And I think the reason that I didn't was because I was still doing it, and it still felt like a dirty secret. Oh, okay. That makes sense. You know, there are definitely things I didn't include in the book, because they would have been, you know, too harmful for other people. But, you know, I think that, for me was one that I was still sort of sitting on psychically, because it felt too shameful. And, but, you know, the very first thing I ever had published when I was like, 20, to 23, living in Seattle, was called food. And it was about binge eating. And so, yeah, so that's, the second book has a lot more of that in it, because it was sort of, you know, for me, I had this one thing that I felt such shame around, and that was a, and undoing that has been a lot. And I think it's, it's really, it's so it's so common and prevalent, that, you know, we have a weird relationship with food because of how wonky our culture is about women's bodies. And so, you know, I, it's a, I think it's sort of more of a commentary on what I was ready to face the fact that it's not in dog medicine. So, if I were to look through, I could probably find a couple instances where I kind of mentioned that I go home and have 10 cookies, you know,

Lisa 
oh, you know, it's fun. I didn't think of that, because I'm like, why I occurred to me that that's a lot. I think I might have a problem too,

Julie 
47:30
with it being a disorder is that you end up feeling that way. Every day, I would go to bed every day, feeling like distended. And I think if I had, you know, I don't think I have the obesity gene. I think if I did, I would have absolutely been obese. But, you know, I, I had enough lucky stuff in the genetics department and also would sort of not eat other healthy things just eat shit and a lot of it. So it was, it wasn't good. And I know I'm still healing from that. But I've made the Enders The first thing I just always thought I'm always gonna have to deal with this. I'm always going to just be over eating secretly to calm my nerves. And I think that EMDR is the first time I thought, Oh, my God, like, did this actually help? 

Lisa 
48:26
I mean, I have so many people. I mean, I literally, I have a friend with anorexia. I have a friend with DiD-nos, two friends with complex PTSD, I seem to attract into my life, a lot of people with complex issues and trauma. And so I'm going to tell them about this. I've also been very curious about the psilocybin. Did you try that?

Julie 
48:44
I didn't, I didn't. I mean, I think if I found a practitioner, a practitioner that I trusted, I might do it, I have friends who've done it,

Lisa
48:52
I think that'd be really cool. I've heard amazing things about it.

Julie 
48:56
I mean, the EMDR took like, a year. So if I could do it in a couple hours with psilocybin, that'd be a lot more efficient, cost effective.

Lisa
49:06
I want to jump into just how magical dogs are before we go today. And I know you've said you learned a lot of things from bunker and you've shared some shirt. Sure, some more

Julie 
49:16
science is catching up to what I think many of us have known for a long time, which is that dogs sense when we're struggling. There was just an article last week about how dogs can can smell stress. And so that's how they you know, like therapy dogs, that's how they know who to go to. And I think that, you know, it felt very magical at the time that you know, there was a moment in the book where, you know, I had gotten the puppy and gotten bunker and I had a few really good days. And then I started to crash again and I was sitting on the couch just thinking like, what am I doing like, now I have a dog on top of feeling terrible. Rowland, he noticed from across the room that I was struggling, and he just walked over and sat on my feet and leaned against my legs and looked up at me with this ridiculously adorable face. And I thought, Okay, I have a choice here, I can decide that he just noticed that I was struggling, and he came over to help, or I can decide it was a coincidence, and that nothing matters. And I was like, I have to decide the first I have to decide that he noticed. And because I did really believe in it. And because it was true, it was what he did, he did that my whole life, not just to me too. I mean, I have, I mean, he did it with other friends of mine, who he knew were struggling, he would just sort of be close to them and lean on them. He was extraordinarily perceptive that way. And special, and he was also very, very calm, he was calm, it may have been because of the ailment he had, that he just couldn't run around the way that, you know, the average paprika, but he was just very, very calm. And so you know, for me, the, the act of noticing that someone is struggling and not going in and saying what's wrong, let me give you my opinion, and my thoughts and my advice. So they're just going in and being like, hey, you know, you know, that kind of being there in solidarity is, is what dogs have in spades, which is they just want to be with you. And they want to, you know, be your companion and your carer. And in return, we do the same for them. And then also, you know, I do think I've learned with my subsequent dogs, that how important it is to really do do do training well, because when you train the dogs, then, you know, they understand that you're the boss, and they don't have to worry about taking care of everything, you've got it. And they can relax a little bit when you're the alpha. And then when you start to, you know, teach them these commands and stuff, you start to have a language that can be really beautiful.

Lisa 
52:21
What are some of your favorite memories of bunker?

Julie 
52:28
Well, so many we used to go to these beautiful offleash parks in Seattle, and I have a picture of him standing in Lake Washington and the waters like up to his chest. And he's just looking at the camera. And I dare anybody to look at that photo and not feel that there is a very deep soul Buddha dog looking at you. And you know, just watching his joy made me have joy. And it was not hard to come by you know him me coming home and be going for walks with him. And I have video footage of him and I used to do a video journal this was in like 1999 and I have this footage of me talking and then you can see him come get on the bed and sit by me and those are really precious to look back at because you can see the healing and action. And then you know really so many amazing snowshoeing, with him. You love the snow. We used to snowshoe in Seattle. You know, walking with him, and then also how incredibly gentle he was with Rachel, my baby when she was born my baby college. And he was just incredibly in tune with her. And yeah, I mean, I I honestly, the thing I miss the most about him is just his presence, because there was a calm that came over me. When he was there. I was like, okay, things are gonna be okay. I got him. And I haven't had that sense. And it may just have been a timing thing. It may have been because he was spectacular, which he was. So you know, I don't know, but that's what I missed the most. And I try to conjure that sometimes, you know, and just sort of really remember sitting in that feeling of feeling utterly safe with him by my side and seen in a way that I had never had not been my whole life.

Lisa
54:42
Are there things that help you conjure that and feel that feeling?

Julie
54:47
You know, I think writing about him really helped because I've spent so much time in a world where he's still there. And and then meditation is helpful to me I keep wishing for a dream where he really very clearly comes to me. And I haven't had one yet. I've had, I had a dream where a different dog with bonkers soul came to me. And interesting because I knew it was him, but it wasn't him. So that was that was really special. So yeah, I mean that my memories of him are all just really really solid, peaceful. You know? No fuss memories really beautiful.

Lisa 
55:36
That is so nice. People listen to the show, probably figure out that my pity Blue is my bunker. I'm getting teared up just thinking about it. And he's still here, he's seven and a half. And every morning around 430 In the morning, he jumps on the bed. And he just comes and puts his big heavy head right on my chest or under my arm. He loves to like smash his nose. And I'm thinking like, this is a nicest feeling. I don't know how I'm not going to how am I going to live without this? This is just become our thing. And it's I just, it's so hard is I mean I'm in the moment with them. And my husband's like, hon, you got to be in the moment. You got to be mindful. Yeah. All right, fine. He's my bunker. You know, that's how I explain it now. He's a bunker, baby.

Julie 
56:27
Yeah, it's, it's honestly, it's tragic. How short dogs look. It's not okay. It does make you savor each each moment more because of that. And, and, you know, I think for me with with bunk it was like, he set me on this trajectory that in order to honor him and his life and his sort of legacy, I have to continue on, which is just being so grateful that he ever came. And he ever happened. And you know, it's funny, because he wasn't much of a smuggler at all. And I was always sort of like, come on and eat. He just was not he leaned and he wanted to be right with me. But he didn't like if I tried to lie down and snuggle next to him. He's like, not comfortable. And I think it was because he very clearly saw me as the Alpha. My current goal. Every morning does a similar thing to what blue does. She gets on the bed. She stands over me and stares at me until I look under the covers, and we spoon for like 15 minutes. Oh, my hands. And I'm like, it's the best way to wake up. It's such a beautiful way to reenter the world every morning.

Lisa 
57:45
It really is. I have one more question. Because you're such a gifted writer that Sarah wants to know, she said, I am eager to take your online writing course. I see you offered one in January. I just missed it. How often? Do you offer these courses? And are you available for private coaching? Oh, that'd be a dream.

Julie 
58:05
Yeah, yeah, um, well, I teach I teach the class pretty much year round, I usually do like a six week session, the class is very, it's generative. So all you do is you come with a pen and paper, and an open mind and heart and I read a poem and the poem is the prompt, and I give you, you know, sort of advice on where to start, and then we just write by hand for 15 minutes. And then we read aloud to each other right away with no commentary, there's no critique, there's no nothing, it's really just a matter of, sort of, like, I think of it like a yoga session, you know, it's like you're going into practice you're practicing. And so I use it that way. And, and it's very communal and non judgmental, and it's the way that I get a lot of my writing down on paper, because when you're writing by hand, the, the something happens, there's some sort of alchemy that the computer skips, right, so when you're writing by hand, you have to slow down a little bit because you can't write as fast and also you can't delete so you just sort of find a little bit more of a rhythm. So we do that I do that once a week for sessions run from four to six weeks and you know, the one on Mondays online so anybody can come and it's really wonderful practice and then yeah, I do do I do do individual coaching for manuscripts and that kind of thing, but I you know, I think I always coach people on there's a point when you're writing when really all you need is a cheerleader, and I can I can do that for you. But you know, it's it's not until the very end that you may want someone to really go in with you and die. But I think one of the things that I'm most I understand the best with writing is struck Sure, I understand how to make a book. unputdownable, which is, you know, it took me a long time to figure out how that works. And it's,

Lisa
1:00:11
well you did that. Oh, thank you. Yes, I could not put this down. And I couldn't stop listening either. For like two days my, my daughter was like, Hey, Mom, where's I'm like, ask your dad. I cannot stop listening.

Julie 
1:00:22
Could you tell that I had a cold, I had a terrible cold while I was recording it.

Lisa 
1:00:29
I just thought he had such a beautiful voice. But you know, it's funny, because when he got on here, I thought, Oh, she sounds a little different. So okay, so yeah,

Julie 
1:00:35
I had a cold, the worst cold air that we had three days at the studio for me to record it, which I had to audition for my own audiobook, because I think they don't, you know, they don't know. Maybe the writer has an annoying voice. But I got very sick in the first day that we recorded, I lost my voice by like noon, and we had to stop. And so it was very stressful, but got through it.

Lisa 
1:00:59
You were saying that you you do you do know how to have a book and you don't want to put it down? That's, that's great. I mean, you can coach people on that. That's pretty spectacular. Yeah,

Julie 
1:01:07
it's not easy, but it's doable. And it's just you have to really be able to, and that's like, for me when I'm writing this, that's at the end, you know, or to the last third of the profit writing process where you start to figure out like, okay, how can this structurally succeed? So, yeah,

Lisa 
1:01:25
it's fine. No, no, is there anything that we didn't touch on? Because I know like, because I love to talk about the trauma and the healing. And I, you know, people apply, like, why don't you talk more about dogs? But listen, this is your journey. This is and bunker was a huge part of it. Yeah. And if it wasn't for him, you really would have wouldn't be here. So he really was medicine? Oh, 1,000%.

Julie 
1:01:49
Yeah. 1,000%. And, you know, the, you know, I talked about this in the next book, and I'll say here that, you know, the, so the day he died on April 4 2007. And the next morning, I woke up. And, you know, waking up without him was, I just, I didn't know how I was going to do it. And I kind of zombie like, went into my office and I got on my computer and turned on email, because I don't know what else you're gonna do. And the first email I saw was an email that I had, I was a finalist in a writing contest that I had entirely forgotten. I entered and I was truly thinking, I'm just gonna give up on writing because I have, you know, I was pregnant, and I had a toddler, and I thought, there's no chance. And I looked at that email, and I'll never forget, I looked up into the right. And I heard him say, tell our story. And I was like, oh my god, oh my God, because I My degree is in fiction writing. I never thought I would be a memoirist or, you know, creative nonfiction. And so, when I heard that, I thought, because I had tried to write a similar story as a novel. It was it's different in a lot of ways. But that was my first book was I wrote the sort of practice book that was a novel about this girl and dogs and, and then I was like, Oh, my God, I have to write this and, and it was very much a directive from him in whatever way that came in. It was all I heard was tell her story. 

Lisa 
1:03:32
Okay, I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try. I'm so glad you did. When is the other book coming out?

Julie 
1:03:40
I don't know, whenever I can get it. Finished. I mean, the hard part with this kind of writing is a lot of times you're living it. You know, like, I am still living the healing and so at what point do you feel like you've gotten enough of a, you know, a growth arc to write a story and I think I'm, I think I'm there. But it's, you know, it's, it's a challenge, for sure. And there, there are some difficult things in there that I have to get the courage to write about, but it'll come.

Lisa 
1:04:15
Well, blue seven and a half. So let's say he lives let's say to 16 So you've got some time. Okay, good. But Benji is nine. So you know, no. Anyway, you are unbelievably wonderful. Thank you. So are you the book again, New York Times best seller? Completely like Yes. Julie Barton dog medicine, how my dog Save me from myself. And I love what Cheryl Strayed New York Times best selling author of boiled said a beautiful, soulful, insightful book that simply has to be your next must read and must listen to I did both. I think it's really I'd like to do that with the books for the show. If they have an audio version. I really, really do. I enjoyed it so incredible it was it was difficult. It was painful. I was mad at you for not, you know, running your brother. But I hope that you know, but I get it. And I, I say that I say with with humor, but really like, just to think of you as this beautiful, wonderful, smart, creative little girl going through this for nothing like It's like what? Yeah, it was really hard. But thank God for bunker and thank God for your courage and strength and all the work you've done on yourself. Thank you, Lisa,

Julie 
1:05:32
thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, you know, constantly working on it. Yeah, we're all a work in progress.

Lisa 
1:05:42
Now, how do we find all your great stuff, especially the book, dog medicine?

Julie 
1:05:47
Well, the books, you know, all the online retail retailers, if you go to the penguin, Random House site, they have a link, you can search my name, and they have a link to all the different ways you can buy it. You know, it's an it's in bookstores now. And then still, but if there's a lot of copies out there,

Lisa 
when did they come out? 26.

Julie 
1:06:08
I say, Well, you know, the story is actually pretty interesting. I initially, I initially published it with a small press. Oh, that's yeah, that called thick piece publishing, because it was like a mental health imprint. And I really liked the guy who was running that publishing house. And it was very small, but I felt very safe. And I was, I was pretty scared to try to do the big ones because it just felt like I don't know, it's probably a self esteem issue in there. But then, then they came to me, you know, this agent that found me, reached out to me before it came out with a small press and said, I really think I could sell this to one of the big houses. Would you be interested in? I said, you know, I thank you, but no, because I'm working with this other guy who I really like. And then it came out and it did really well with the small press. And then they called again and she said, Okay, well what would you say if I told you I had an offer from Penguin? To publish? I was like, Hold, please. Because I just saw you know, we both knew the distribution from a smaller presses.

Lisa 
1:07:18
That's this book needs to be everywhere. Yeah, there

Julie 
1:07:21
was a time that it was it was it was in all the airports in the bookstores. And that was fun, because I was like flying around for the tour. And I would see my book.

Lisa 
1:07:29
That is so awesome. You know, what I had to do with my book, I had a book come out in 2019 with Skyhorse publishing. And I was going to New York to do some interviews from Sirius XM. And so I did is I put it on one of those, you know, whether they put the books in the bookstore at the airport, I just put it there took a picture and I told being sold there. Love it. I love it. I just loved I loved it. Just pretend. I know. I know. I should have worked with you to get it to, you know, to the word you can't put it down.

Julie 
1:07:59
Yeah, you know, it's it's, uh, you just never know, you know, you never know what's gonna hit and for whatever reason, I think bunker had some divine intervention there. He was like, I'm gonna help

Lisa 
1:08:11
you. You're writing your bravery or everything. Now did you give us your website? I want to make
 Julie 
1:08:19
it by Julie Barton be why like by julie.com 

Lisa 
1:08:24
Well Julie, this has been great. You're always welcome back here. I don't have a doggie door but I say my doggy doors open. And love it. Love it here on dog eared and everybody, please. Yeah, this has been amazing. Please rate review, subscribe and keep coming back. Thank you so much. Thank you